Sara Sheehan’s guest in this episode is Terry Tucker, a speaker, international podcast guest on the topic of motivation, and author of “Sustainable Excellence: Ten Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life”. Terry has a storied history including working as a marketing executive, hospital administrator, and SWAT hostage negotiator, in addition to surviving cancer. Sara and Terry talk about his books, his cancer journey, and why communication and connection are vital to living extraordinary lives.
Our job doesn’t always have to embody our purpose, which is a lesson Terry learned through living and now widely shares. He stresses that we should lean into our soul’s purpose to fulfill our lives. He also learned the secrets to effective communication through his time as a hostage negotiator and explains why the 7% how you communicate, 38% words you say, and 55% body language and expressions formula is so important to consider. Of course, a large part of communication is listening and that leads to greater connection, which Terry says is his greatest focus in life currently.
Sara Sheehan and Terry Tucker explore how to foster deeper connections and why those connections are so important to both life and success. Terry reflects on his cancer journey by discussing how life will always bring us challenges and adversity and that it’s how we rise from adversity and what we learn from it that defines us going forward. Sara Sheehan learns that Terry wouldn’t change the course of his life because he believes cancer made him a better person and that his next book will focus on being of service to ourselves, our families and friends, and our communities. This motivational episode is not to be missed.
About Terry Tucker:
Terry Tucker is a sought-after speaker who believes in the power of a good story to motivate, inspire, and encourage others to lead their uncommon and extraordinary lives.
By combining his twelve-year cancer journey with his diverse business, athletic coaching, and law enforcement expertise, he delivers compelling yet relatable presentations for conferences, virtual events, panels, meetings, and seminars.
Terry is the Founder of Motivational Check LLC and has a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration from The Citadel and a Master’s degree from Boston University.
He has been an NCAA Division I college basketball player, a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a customer service manager, a SWAT Hostage Negotiator, a business owner, a high school basketball coach, and a cancer warrior.
He is the author of the book Sustainable Excellence, Ten Principles To Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life. Terry has been featured in Authority, Thrive Global, and Human Capital Leadership magazines. In addition, he is quoted in the new book, Audaciousness, Your Journey To Living A Bold And Authentic Life by Maribel Ortega and Helen Strong
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Resources discussed in this episode:
- “Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection” by Charles Duhigg
- “The Anxious Generation” by Jonathan Haidt
- “Do Hard Things” by Steve Magness
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Contact Sara Sheehan | Sara Sheehan Consulting:
Contact Terry Tucker:
- Website: MotivationalCheck.com
- Book: “Sustainable Excellence: Ten Principles To Leading Your Uncommon And Extraordinary Life” by Terry Tucker
- YouTube
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Transcript
Sara Sheehan: [00:01:33] Hi there, I’m Sara Sheehan and welcome to my podcast Transformational Thinkers with Sara Sheehan. Today I’m speaking with Terry Tucker. He is a speaker, author and international podcast guest on the topics of motivation, mindset and self-development. He has a Business Administration degree from The Citadel where he played NCAA Division One college basketball, which I love, and a master’s degree from Boston University. He held many diverse professional roles in his career, including being a marketing executive, a hospital administrator, a SWAT hostage negotiator, and most recently for the past 12 years, a true cancer warrior. He is the author of the book Sustainable Excellence: Ten Principles to Leading Your Uncommon and Extraordinary Life, and he is featured as an author of the new book Perspectives on Cancer: Stories of Healing, Hope and Resilience. He has been published in Authority Magazine, Thrive Global and Human Capital Leadership magazines. He is also continuing to write and has a current book underway, which we will discuss today. Terry, I am so excited to have you in conversation today. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to shed light on all that you’ve learned in your very fascinating career and life.
Terry Tucker: [00:03:33] Well, Sara, thanks for having me on. I’m really looking forward to talking with you today.
Sara Sheehan: [00:03:37] Thank you so very much. Terry, in your career, I find it fascinating that you pivoted from traditional business roles into being a SWAT hostage negotiator. And I know that choosing an opportunity in law enforcement was very important to you personally. What would you say that you learned when you went into that role?
Terry Tucker: [00:04:09] I think one of the biggest things that I’m proud of in my life is that I never let my dream die. As you mentioned, my first two jobs were in the business world. I was in the corporate headquarters of Wendy’s International, the hamburger chain, my marketing role. And then I went to work for the hospital that had treated my father and my grandmother before they had passed away of cancer. So, just a little bit of the back story. My dad’s father, my grandfather, was a Chicago police officer from 1924 to 1954, and in 1933, he was shot in the line of duty with his own gun. It was not a serious injury, he was shot in the ankle. When I expressed an interest in going into law enforcement, my dad recalled all the stories my grandmother used to tell of that knock on the door. Mrs. Tucker, grab your son, come with us. Your husband’s been shot. And my dad was, absolutely not. You’re going to college, you’re going to major in business. You’re going to get out. You’re going to get married, have 2.4 kids and live happily ever after. But that’s the job, that’s the role, that’s the life my father wanted me to live. That wasn’t the life that I felt I was supposed to live. And so when I graduated from college, my father was dying of cancer, and I had probably my first big adult decision choice to make.
Terry Tucker: [00:05:32] I could have said, sorry dad, I know you’re dying of cancer, but I’m going to go do my own thing and blaze my own trail, or out of love and respect for you, I will do what you want me to do. And so that’s where my first two jobs were in business. And I sort of joke, I did what every good son did. I waited till my father passed away and I followed my own dreams. And I know I’m not unique in that. I know there are a lot of people out there probably listening to us that, somebody in their family wants them to go into the family business or wants them to be a lawyer, like dad was a lawyer or whatever it ends up being. And that’s not what they feel they’re supposed to do. That’s not what they feel is their calling. And that’s a really hard thing, I think, to deal with, especially when it’s a family member. And when it’s a family member that’s doing it, not because they’re trying to hurt you or out of spite, but because they love you and they want something that they feel is better for you. So I guess that’s kind of a long-winded answer to your question, but like I said, I am incredibly proud that I never let my dream, my purpose die. And I actually made that pivot to go into law enforcement at 37 years of age.
Sara Sheehan: [00:06:36] That’s amazing. Talk with us a little bit about how that helped you live out your purpose.
Terry Tucker: [00:06:43] I guess I need to back up a little bit. We, I think a lot of times, talk about purpose as a singular thing or a singular event. And at least in my life, purpose has been plural. It’s been purposes. When I was younger, I felt my purpose was to be an athlete. And then, as I said, I felt my purpose was to get into law enforcement. And now, in all honesty, with my cancer, is I’m probably coming towards the end of my life. I feel my purpose has shifted or pivoted again to put as much goodness, positivity, motivation, and love back into the world as I can. We always like to think that if we could have that purpose, that it would be aligned with our job or our occupation. That would be great. But it doesn’t have to be. Your job could be over here, it’s what you do to pay the bills, but your purpose is over here. To be a podcast host or to be an author or a painter or an activist or whatever you feel. I’ll end with this, and I tell this especially when I speak to young people, if there’s something in your heart, something in your soul that you feel you’re supposed to do, but it scares you, go ahead and do it. Because at the end of your life, the things you’re going to regret are not going to be those things you did. They’re going to be those things you didn’t do. And by then, it’s going to be too late to go back and do them.
Sara Sheehan: [00:08:10] That is absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that with me and with our listeners. In conversation with you, Terry, you had mentioned to me one of the things that you learned in being a SWAT hostage negotiator, that you learned an awful lot about listening, asking the right questions, having effective communication in those very difficult situations. And you had shared with me that it’s only about 7% is how you communicate a message, where 38% of it are the actual words that you use, and 55% of what you’re doing in communicating is the actual body language or expressions that you’re bringing to the message that you’re sending to the other party. I do find that fascinating. And so if you could talk a little bit about what went into you learning more about how you convey a message effectively and get someone to communicate with you that may not want to.
Terry Tucker: [00:09:39] That 7/38/55 formula that I was given when I became a hostage negotiator applies to how we, not just police officers and that, but how we as human beings communicate with each other. And the interesting thing about that is understanding that as we were negotiating with people, if somebody was barricaded with a gun in a room, I was not in the room with that person. I, more than likely, was blocks away talking on the phone, so I didn’t have the benefit of that 55% of seeing body language or facial expressions. For example, of saying something, well, Sara, what do you think about this? And then have you kind of roll your eyes and be like, oh, I can’t believe he said that to me. I didn’t have that luxury. So we got good at figuring things out, certainly based on what people were saying or telling us, but also what they weren’t saying and how they were saying it. The overarching theme of what we were doing, and I think the overarching thing of any relationship that you have in your life, whether it’s with your spouse, your kids, your boss, your friends, whatever, is trust. If you don’t trust that person, it’s very hard to have any kind of relationship. So we were trying to build trust with an individual that number one, was probably having the worst day of their life. If you’re talking to me and your house or apartment is surrounded not by the police. Yeah, not having a good day.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:04] Not having a good day.
Terry Tucker: [00:11:06] And secondly, somebody we’ve never met, and in many cases, had no idea why we were there. What precipitated this? What got us to this point? So we were trying to develop trust, and we did that through empathy. And empathy was basically, for example, if you and I were negotiating, it would be, well, Sara, help me to understand where you’re coming from. And the big word there is understand, because I want to understand where you’re coming from. I’m not necessarily going to agree with you. If you’re a homicide suspect that just killed three people, I’m not going to say what you did was right. But I need to understand where you’re coming from, because empathy builds trust. And trust gets to a point where I can try to change behavior, getting you out safely or getting the hostages out safely.
Sara Sheehan: [00:11:55] This is so applicable in many environments. It doesn’t have to just be in a hostage situation. Learning to have a better conversation is applicable in any part of your life. One of the books that I’m reading right now is very applicable in this discussion. It’s by Charles Duhigg and it is Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. It is a wonderful book. He proposes that there are truly only three conversations that we have in life. They are practical conversations, where we’re trying to get to answer the question, what’s this really about? There are emotional conversations that help us understand how we feel about something. And then finally, there are social conversations that define who we are. By recognizing the type of conversation that we’re having, we can seek to connect with the others in the conversation more if the tactics that we use match up with the type of conversation that we’re having. In your situation, you were in a very high-stress, high-stakes situation. If you could understand more about what’s going on for the individual in that very difficult position, you might be able to find a way to negotiate with them that would work, correct?
Terry Tucker: [00:13:42] Absolutely. We used to talk about what we did, we tried to make it simple. We’ve all been, when we’re little kids, to the park and played on the teeter-totter or the see-saw. When we started negotiating with somebody, usually their emotional brain was way up in the air and their rational brain was down on the ground. And by asking open-ended questions, we would use ‘how and what’ questions, we would stay away from ‘why’ questions. Because if, for example, if I said to you, well, Sara, why did you wear that today? Wait a minute, do you not like what I’m wearing? ‘Why’ questions sound accusatory. So we would use ‘how’ and ‘what’ questions, and we would get the person to burn off a lot of that emotional energy and try to get that teeter-totter to equilibrium. And then by continuing to talk, to dialog, hopefully get to the point where the person’s rational brain was up in the air and their emotional brain was down on the ground. Because we all make better decisions for ourselves using our rational brain than our emotional. We would never, I mean, it could be hours into the conversation. We were not talking about solutions.
Sara Sheehan: [00:14:58] Understood. You’re just trying to get them to calm down. Clearly it’s an emotional discussion. Clearly it is. Trying to get someone to get out of their head, literally, and calm down, cool off and have a little bit more of a level frame of mind was critical. Tell me, Terry, what would you like to double down on, or focus on, so that you can have more impact in your life?
Terry Tucker: [00:15:35] I’m going to shift gears a little bit now, and I would say it would be connection. One of the nurses who cares for me now, I still have tumors in my lungs, gave me a book called Imagine Heaven, and it’s about people who had near-death experiences and many interesting things in the book. But one of the big things I took away was that no matter who the person having that near-death experience saw or encountered, the one question almost everybody got asked is how do you treat my people? In other words, how do we treat each other? How do we connect with each other? How do we work together with each other? If COVID taught us anything, it’s how much we need each other. When we were isolated, and today we are isolated. We’ve got these devices that we take, well, how I feel today depends on what’s said on this device. We put our sunglasses on and our earbuds on and we walk around like, don’t talk to me, don’t involve me. I don’t want to have anything to do with you. We need that connection. We are better together than we are separately. I mean, during COVID, alcoholism rates went up, drug abuse rates went up, domestic violence rates went up, divorce rates went up. Because we’re not good separate. We need each other. So the answer to your question is connection. I’m looking for more connection with people in my life. It’s not money, it’s not power, it’s not influence. It’s connection with other human beings.
Sara Sheehan: [00:17:06] That is so critical. And I believe it’s very healing when we’re able to truly plugin with another person and engage in a transformational way. It’s so powerful. I’m also reading right now a book called The Anxious Generation which I highly recommend, and it actually speaks at length about how bad technology is in social media and how it’s changing childhood in a negative way. So you’re on to much more than what you’re just feeling in your heart. There’s many hypotheses out there about how we need to connect with others at a much deeper level, to make our world a better place to live. Literally. Tell me, Terry, what do you think you’ve learned on your cancer journey?
Terry Tucker: [00:18:15] I’ve learned a lot of things, but two important things that I’ve learned are, number one, I don’t think you really know yourself until you’ve been tested by some form of adversity in your life. And if you live long enough, you’re going to be tested by adversity. Something bad is going to happen to you. The writer Ernest Hemingway had a great quote that went, life breaks everyone, and afterward many are stronger at the broken places. So as I said, you’re going to experience adversity in your life. Somebody close to you is going to die. You’re unexpectedly going to get let go from your job. You’re going to find out you have a chronic or a terminal illness. Life is going to beat you to your knees, but you can also learn from that and rise from that and be stronger. So I don’t think you know yourself until you’ve been tested by adversity. And the second thing, and this is going to sound really crazy, is cancer has made me a better human being. It’s made me focus on the things that I think are really important in life. I mean, when I was young and playing sports, I mean, was it nice? Yeah. Was it fun? Absolutely. But was it important? Probably not. And now that I don’t have a left leg because of my cancer, I’m in a wheelchair, you kind of balance those things. And I think when you can’t do what you’re good at, you do what’s important in life. And that’s what I’ve been doing. And I don’t think, honestly, if you ask me, if you could live your life over again without cancer, I’m not so sure that I would, because I think cancer has made me a better human being.
Sara Sheehan: [00:19:52] That is deeply profound. That’s remarkable, it truly is. And it tells me that in your heart, you know that your transformation is truly significant.
Terry Tucker: [00:20:08] Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that. Like I said, it focuses you on what’s important. For me, what’s important are what I call my three F’s. Faith, family and friends. That’s really, to me, what’s important in life.
Sara Sheehan: [00:20:20] And focusing on what’s important makes every day better. And so, Terry, I know that you are continuing to be active in writing and in authoring books, and I know that you have one that you’re currently working on, and I would love to talk about it if you’re open to it today. Talk with me about what you’re currently writing and what you’re writing about.
Terry Tucker: [00:20:48] So I’m writing my second book that focuses more on service. My first book was a book I felt about success, how I saw success or how I thought people could be successful. When I wrote that book, I always kind of had an itch, so to speak, that I need to write a book, or I’d like to write a book about another word that begins with S, and that word is service. And so this second book is more about not necessarily how you can be successful, but how you can be of service to yourself, to your family, to your friends, to your community. And don’t get me wrong, I think you can be both. I think you can be successful and be a servant in life. I learned a lot in college about servant leadership. I went to a military college and I learned about servant leadership. Leaders eat last, how you support people, how you care for them, how you make them better. Another one I always speak to young people, I always tell them this. It’s more important who you work with and for, than it is the work that you do. Find people that care about you. Find people that are willing to invest in you. Find people that want you to be successful, and hitch your wagon to those people and climb your mountains together.
Sara Sheehan: [00:22:10] That is amazing advice. I hope that anyone that is at the beginning of their career, in their earlier days, that they are listening and they are taking that to heart because that is absolutely right on. The people that you grow with will be the people that take care of you. And if you’re not in a position where you’re growing, find people that will help you grow in the right way. So that is absolutely beautiful. Is there one through-line that you could describe in the book that’s the most important message?
Terry Tucker: [00:22:59] I’ve got these ten principles in the book, and I don’t think any of them are necessarily more important than the other. Although the more I think about it, the more you ask that question, I think there is one. And it’s the last principle. It’s the importance of love in our life. And I’m not talking about romantic kind of love. When I was younger, I was a big fan of a basketball coach at the University of California at Los Angeles by the name of John Wooden. I read everything he wrote, I read articles about him. And I remember one day I was listening to an interview that he was giving with a sports reporter, and I was sitting there with a pad of paper and a pencil, and I was ready to, come on, coach, give me some good X’s and O’s, things that I could use on the basketball court. The reporter asked him, what’s the most important thing that you want your players to learn or to understand or to come away with, from their time as basketball players at UCLA? And I’m on the edge of my seat, alright here, this could be something great. And he said, I want my players to understand the importance of love. As a 13-year-old kid, I was like, no! Love, are you kidding me? I could care less about love. Come on, coach, give me something good. But what he was saying with that is, I want my players to understand the importance of loving themselves, of loving what they do, of loving their teammates and things like that. And I didn’t get that as a 13-year-old kid. I was not emotionally intelligent enough to understand that. But as I’ve grown, and I think that’s why I put it as the last principle in the book, that love is the most important thing that any of us will ever experience or ever do in our lives.
Sara Sheehan: [00:24:35] I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think that there are so many people in the world that would be happier at work and in their personal life if they had more love, whether it is their boss and how their boss treats them, their team at work and how they work together, their family at home, and how they conduct themselves and care for one another. More love is absolutely transformational. I can’t wait to read the book, Terry, I can’t wait to read it. Talk with me about what your big goals and aspirations are that you’re currently working on.
Terry Tucker: [00:25:26] I don’t focus that much anymore on goals, so to speak. I look at the processes that I have in my life. Are those processes where they need to be? How can I make them better? How are they serving me in terms of my life and things like that? I figure if I’ve got the processes in place that the goals or the things that I’m interested in will come with those things. In all honesty, I want to connect with other people to get more information out there about disease, about how you can overcome it, how you can fight it. I think cancer, I had this discussion with my oncologist a couple of weeks ago, cancer’s getting to be, it used to be a death sentence. Oh my God, I got cancer. I’m going to die. There’s nothing I can do. And I think cancer is moving more from a death sentence to more of a chronic illness. You may have it for your entire life, but you’re going to be able to live a decent life with that because they have so many different things. When I was diagnosed in 2012, I was told I’d be dead in two years. And now, 12-plus years later, I’m still here. I’m dealing with a chronic disease and I probably will for my whole life.
Sara Sheehan: [00:26:38] Exactly. I definitely experienced that myself with my father’s case, in that he had very advanced colorectal cancer that he was diagnosed with, and he was told he had a very small chance of living a few years, and he ended up living 15 years. And it wasn’t enjoyable or pretty for him. But that, I believe, was the beginning of them being able to treat and find pathways to help someone continue forward. I’m hopeful that treatment will truly progress in future years, where the patient can retain more choices in what they do and retain a higher quality of life is what I would say. Very interesting. One of the comments that you shared with me there really tells me that if you’re looking at the processes that are in your life, you’re thinking about what your habits are. And if you’re thinking about what your habits are and what you’re doing, you’re tuned in to where you are on the healthy scale.
Terry Tucker: [00:28:05] I would absolutely agree.
Sara Sheehan: [00:28:08] Interesting. Very good stuff. Terry, what does being a transformational thinker mean to you?
Terry Tucker: [00:28:15] I guess I would equate it to being a lifelong learner, of never being to a point where I’ve figured it all out or I know it all. I would, in all honesty, like to die learning. And I think if you can take that knowledge and apply it in your life. Think about it. What does that mean? I don’t think we think enough. We don’t spend enough time with ourselves. I read a really great book called Do Hard Things by a man by the name of Steve Magness, and he talks about a study that was done at the University of Minnesota, where they took students, put them in a room with nothing else. No devices, no pens, pencils, anything. Just a table, a chair. And the only other thing in the room was a buzzer, and they asked the student to stay in there 15, 20 minutes. Not a long time. And it was amazing, 68% of the men and 25% of the women pressed that buzzer. And when you press the buzzer, and you knew this, you were going to get an electric shock. What the study basically concluded was, we’re not comfortable in our own skin. We’re not comfortable with our own thoughts. So I think being a transformational thinker means being able to be comfortable with our own thoughts, and then taking those thoughts and applying them to the world outside of us to make life better for ourselves and for others.
Sara Sheehan: [00:29:36] That is a great book, by the way. Doing Hard Things. And that’s something that I feel like we as a society have gotten off rails with a bit. So I definitely appreciate that mention. And yes, we need to get more comfortable not only with ourselves, but being present and being mindful seems to be a huge task today. Very difficult and trying for some people. Excellent. Terry, is there anything else that you are working on that you would like to share?
Terry Tucker: [00:30:13] I’m also working on working with two doctors to basically do a webinar that sort of marries the traditional western medicine with some of the other things, in terms of what we eat, meditation, things like that. Not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but maybe finding the best of both worlds that can help people from a medical point of view, and also from a mental or a mindset point of view as well.
Sara Sheehan: [00:30:41] Yes, I love the idea of making sure that we’re taking note of what we’re eating and what else we can do that might be more natural or organic and less harmful. I will be very interested to see what comes of that discussion, and would love to even share it if there’s a link that I could share in the future with my network or listeners. Excellent. And so, Terry, tell me, how would our listeners find you?
Terry Tucker: [00:31:16] I have a website/blog called Motivational Check. Every day I put up a thought for the day, and with that thought usually comes a question. But Motivational Check is the easiest way to get a hold of me. You can leave me a message there and I respond to everybody who reaches out.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:33] Excellent. Well, Terry, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your time and appreciate your story. You have so much light and positivity to share that the world desperately needs.
Terry Tucker: [00:31:47] Well, Sara, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed talking with you.
Sara Sheehan: [00:31:50] Excellent. Well, thanks so much.
Sara Sheehan [00:31:52]: Thank you so much for listening to Episode 18. We had such a fabulous conversation. Three big takeaways from my discussion with Terry Tucker include: First, pursuing purpose and overcoming fear. Terry Tucker emphasizes the importance of pursuing one’s true purpose in life despite fear or external objections. He shares his personal journey of transitioning from traditional business roles to becoming a SWAT hostage negotiator, driven by personal significance over familial expectations. This reflects the underlying message of not letting fear dictate your life’s direction to avoid future regrets. Second, effective communication and building trust. Drawing from his experience as a negotiator, Tucker highlights that effective communication relies heavily on body language and tone, not just words. Building trust through empathetic and open ended conversations, especially in difficult or high stakes situations like hostage negotiations, is crucial. These skills are applicable in various settings, emphasizing the importance of connection and understanding in human interactions. Third, integrating love and empathy for a fulfilled life. Tucker shares insights learned from legendary basketball coach John Wooden about loving oneself, loving what one does and loving others. He underscores the necessity of incorporating love and empathy in both personal and professional relationships to lead a happier and more meaningful life. His focus on serving others, and his evolving perspective on goals and processes, particularly in the face of his chronic illness and advocacy for cancer research, further illustrate the principle. Thank you so much for joining us for this fascinating conversation with Terry Tucker. I do hope that you will share your thoughts in the comments, and that you will subscribe and never miss an episode.
